Anti Wilders campaign turns anti-Jewish …writes Julie Nathan
The impending visit to Australia by Geert Wilders, the Dutch MP, has created a storm of controversy.
Julie Nathan
Geert Wilders
Wilders, who heads the Dutch Party for Freedom, has been outspoken on the role of Islam and of Islamic extremism in Europe. He asserts that there is no difference between Islam as a religion and extreme Islamist political ideologies. He has called for a ban on further Muslim immigration to the Netherlands, claiming that Muslims do not integrate into Dutch society and contribute to the creeping Islamisation of Holland.
Holland has seen the murders by Islamist extremists of film maker, Theo van Gogh, and politician and gay rights activist, Pim Fortuyn, for their critical views of Islam.
Wilders is due to talk this month in Melbourne, Perth, and Sydney. The sponsors of his tour, the Q Society, have reportedly found it difficult to secure venues because venue owners are fearful of violent protests or worse.
Due to continual threats against Wilders, who lives under 24 hour security in Holland, Dutch police officers will accompany him during his stay in Australia.
Anti-Wilders campaigners claim Wilders is a bigot against Islam and a racist. Ironically, some of them have descended into religious bigotry and racism of their own, directed against the Jewish community.
Wilders is not Jewish, and his party supports a ban on ritual animal slaughter, including kosher slaughter, and to varying degrees, halal slaughter. Despite this, it is Wilders’ support for the state of Israel against Islamist extremism and terrorism that has been the pretext for polemical attacks on Jews.
The campaign against Wilders is being organized through several Facebook pages. Three of these are sub-named: “No to Islamophobia, No to Racist Hate”. Yet the call against racist hate has itself attracted an outpouring of racist hate from those opposing Geert Wilders.
One poster on the Sydney Facebook page equates Jewish national self-determination with the establishment by the Nazis of a vast system which systematically murdered six million Jews and hundreds of thousands of other unarmed civilians. The EU working definition of antisemitism includes “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor”.
In another thread on the Sydney page, the poster wrote: “Multiple wives seems more reasonable then tulmadic (sic) approval of multiple little boys.”
This claim that the Talmud permits sex with children is a complete fabrication, and a favourite slander by those hostile to Jews. Further, the Talmud has absolutely no connection to Wilders or his party, so any comment on the Talmud is purely gratuitous and unjustified denigration of Judaism.
A few days later on the same page, the same poster wrote: “Are you pro Zionist and do you believe in this ideology that sees any Zionist or Jew as superior / chosen people that are above the law while the rest of us are goyim less humans.”
Neither Judaism nor Zionism promotes any theory of ethnic superiority of Jews over gentiles. Again, this is pure fabrication.
Of the several Facebook pages campaigning against Wilders, it is mainly the Sydney page that contains the anti-Jewish postings. This Sydney page was established by James Supple and Amy Thomas
Both Supple and Thomas work for Solidarity Magazine, which describes itself as a “socialist group,” one of whose aims is to work “against racism.”
One would assume that socialists opposing racism would counter and condemn the anti-Jewish racism being posted on the Facebook page they established. One would expect that a Facebook page with the sub-name “No to Racist Hate” would bar any kind of racist content.
In response to an article on Wilders in WA Today, Thomas posted on her personal Facebook page “The horrendous racist quotes from white supremacists in this article give reason why we should protest, not why we shouldn’t. We need a physical showing of opposition to show that the ideas of Wilders are not welcome here.” She then linked to the anti-Wilders Sydney Facebook page.
Thomas quite rightly sees the quotes in the WA Today article as racist, yet when it comes to anti-Jewish racism on her own anti-Wilders Facebook page, she appears blind. It appears that to Thomas, bigotry by “white supremacists” against Muslims is unacceptable, as indeed it is, but racism by others against Jews is acceptable.
Supple posted an apology for offensive and racist material, and has, as he claims, deleted “explicitly offensive posts and comments” but places the blame for the racism on those “people from the far right trolling.” In addition to anti-Muslim comments, Supple deleted one whole thread with all its anti-Jewish comments but did not prevent the main culprit from continuing to post other anti-Jewish material.
On another Facebook page, the administrator deleted “racist drivel” as he recognized that “this event page is not the place for Islamophic rants to be broadcast!” Some of the anti-Muslim comments were indeed vile, and deserved deleting. In fact, all of the anti-Wilders Facebook pages contain varying degrees of anti-Muslim comment. The campaign against Wilders has attracted those who are anti-Islam and anti-Muslim, as well as Jew-haters.
The reaction to Wilders’ visit has been a lightning rod for all kinds of racists. It is especially revealing that anything that has even the vaguest possible connection to Jews, such as Wilders’ support for Israel, is used as an opportunity by Jew-haters to crawl out of the woodwork and spew their venom.
In a democracy such as Australia’s, we all have a right to demonstrate for or against any person’s or organisation’s views or policies. That right does not extend to the dissemination of racial hatred against any group.
If the organizers of the anti-Wilders campaign are genuinely against racism, and not just jumping on a populist bandwagon, they need to open their eyes and learn some hard lessons. Lesson number one is that allowing anti-Jewish comments to remain on their Facebook pages sends the utterly hypocritical message that criticism of Islam and Muslims is to be opposed, but racism against Jews is acceptable.
Regardless of the identity of the perpetrator, or the identity of the victim, racism is racism and those who wish to be taken seriously as anti-racist campaigners must pro-actively combat all species of racism in all their insidious guises.
Julie Nathan is the research officer for the Executive Council of Australian Jewry (ECAJ), the officially elected representative organisation of the Australian Jewish Community.
Ben,
It’s not bigotry to see clearly what is happening around you and speak of those facts. It’s not bigotry to warn of the further consequences that could well take place, indeed most probably will, if nothing is done to stem what is happening on the ground with Islamic activities. It’s not bigotry to come up with some ideas with which to counter that. It’s not bigotry to attempt to protect your own culture and beliefs if you do so constructively and without malicious intent. It takes a great deal of courage and fortitude to stand, as an individual, against the political correctness that plagues the world in this century, and the alarmingly blind and vindictive views held by so many supporting the present infiltration of Islam into so many countries throughout the world – paving the way for loss of what is actually dear to them. It takes guts, and a special resilience, to wake up each morning to the real possibility of losing your life due to your willingness to speak out.
I saw Wilders interviewed by Tony Jones on ABC;s Lateline last week, and found him to be forthright, highly knowledgeable, and, rather than extreme (although let’s face it, the subject matter itself is what is extreme, so to get a more underplayed take on it is more than difficult), both sincere and logical in tackling what are basically huge, complex problems that are not going to go away.
The only thing I didn’t care for in Wilders’ comments was bringing into the equation Judeo-Christianity and the ideology (only) that is Islam. I don’t believe religion per se is the point here. Religion is what is being used as Islamic ideology. Just because some people don’t like the wording in the Koran doesn’t mean Islam is not a religion – that’s just ridiculous, of course it’s a religion. Judaism and Christianity are not restricted to peace and love in their texts. There’s plenty of slaying and stoning to death, and edicts relating to that, in the Torah, as well as stories and passages of exquisite beauty and great wisdom. As for Christianity, it has a hideous history in relation to humankind, whether one is thinking of the damage done to Jews for hundreds of years (in both obvious and insidious ways), culminating in the Holocaust, or the Crusades, burning of women as witches on byres throughout Europe and on over to UK/Scotland between 1500s and early 1800s, persecution, and execution, of the likes of Galileo and Bruno et al, the Spanish Inquisition, the gross interference by missionaries in African countries, right up to the present day sexual abuse of minors in religious establishments throughout the world. One could go on and on. So, I don’t like the idea of standing supreme in lofty fashion in regard to the notion of Christianity in particular. And I don’t like being connected with it as a Jew, in any way. It’s my view it’s a lie and a false construct, and I have all sorts of research that points in that direction, however that’s not for this particular discussion. It’s not just at government level Christianity has been used and abused either – slandering and evil has been preached from the church pulpits by Catholic and Lutheran for centuries. History has evolved and now it’s Islam instead of Christianity doing the dirty work in the hands of humans and attempting what is in effect a takeover. Let’s just rest with the fact that humankind misuses and abuses religion full stop, using it as power base, and get on with tackling the realities happening around us.
I read (b) and (c) of your latest posting with interest, as I detect a degree of nervousness there. We can’t kowtow to Islam, or decide not to confront it, due to fear or insecurity, Ben. If things end up going the way you would like, either in Israel, or here, you might find yourself, as a Jewish person, wishing you’d never worked so hard for it.
It would be interesting to know if we have more than one Ben here.
If we do, can you please ID yourselves so we know which one is posting. Thanks
I’d like to suggest likewise for others with more popular names. Peter is one of them as is David
Ben if Islam is nothing to be fearful/wary of how come the Melbourne venue has cancelled for fear?
How come every time the pro-Palestinian groups in this country bring out and Israel hater we aren’t handing out death threats and threatening violence. Or doesn’t that count in your book.?
How come the Chabad movement isn’t fighting with Liberal Jews because they perceive them unbelievers etc.?
How come the Ahmadiyya Muslims community moved its headquarters to the UK in the 1980s after the Pakistani government passed a law forbidding Ahmadis from calling themselves Muslims and curbing their religious practices.?
“They were also hounded in Pakistan by Islamic groups that have set up UK satellite offices and are doing the same here, according to Naseer Din, president of the London Ahmadiyya community. “They are advocating sectarianism in Pakistan and creating hatred,” he said. “These [same] groups are coming here and creating the same hatred … There is indoctrination going on in the Muslim community.”
One anti-Ahmadi group is Khatme Nubuwwat, whose UK academy is in Forest Gate, east London. Its website variously describes Ahmadis as “traitors”, “double faced”, “dangerous” and engaged in a “conspiracy against Islam”.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/07/ahmadiyya-community-uk-action-hate
Shirlee,
You have two Bens. The other seems to go by the name of Ben Eleijah. Sorry about the confusion. Ben David is fine – it is my middle name.
You cant say from the examples you cite mean that people who practice Islam are inherently bad or that Muslims should therefore be restricted from entering Aus. There are plenty of African countries where appalling violence has occurred but you simply cant make a judgement merely because they come from such a place. It is not possible to interview an immigrant for a visa and decide, without evidence, whether they are likely to turn into an extremist. Applying racial or religious criteria in a blunt way is far too arbitrary and will penalise people who are completely innocent; people who may even turn out to be an asset to this country.
There are already heavy restrictions and immigration quotas in Australia. These are far from perfect processes and can be toughened up but I have infinitely more faith in them than the arbitrary racial or religious profiling that you and Wilders seem to favour.
Contrary to what you think I’m not some starry eyed liberal. Have lived in far more challenging parts of the world than most; places that test ones tolerance. But racism or other forms of unjustified discrimination will always be wrong however you try to dress it up. Excluding someone from this country just because they are Muslim is indefensible.
Ben David
Interesting opinion piece by Wilders in the Australian this morning. In what looks to be a sop to those accusing him of extremism he says “I am not against Muslims, just Islam”. Unfortunately you cannot coherently distinguish between the two. It’s a bit like those on the far left who say “I don’t dislike Jews, just Israel”, when the two are in reality intertwined.
The better distinction has always been between moderate and extremist Muslims/Islam. If you believe that Islam is inherently and irredeemably undemocratic and evil, you are not a moderate. Does he seriously think Muslims should convert or abandon their entire faith ? Does he think this is democratic or reasonable ?
If large numbers of the Jewish community attend his talk in a highly visible way, do let us know so that we can decide:
(a) whether they are representative of us all;
(b) whether relations with what is left of the moderate Muslims in this country can ever be salvaged; and
(c) whether I ought to budget for an additional security levy at my child’s Jewish day school.
Ben
Paul
The bottom line is that what you and Wilders are proposing as a solution to the so called “Muslim problem” is totally and utterly unworkable.
You say below that you (and Wilders) would like to “crush” Islam. Apart from being a profoundly irresponsible thing to say, just how do you propose to do it ? Practically, you cant crush 1.6bn people. And you cant “crush” Islam in Aus either or are you going to encourage someone to perhaps liquidate Lakemba ? (Before you answer please be aware that incitement to violence is a criminal offence as is incitement of religious hatred).
As for other options, you know full well that no Aus Gov – incl a Lib one – will ban Muslims from immigrating to Australia on grounds of their faith alone. Nor will they impose restrictions that infringe State Discrimination legislation. Such a gov would find itself in the High Court quicker than you could say Julian Burnside QC You can fantasise about it all you like but it will never ever happen.
Given this, consorting with Wilders seems to achieve precisely nothing, other to inflame tensions and foster hate, including hate against our community. For those who think they might learn something, it seems to me he will be preaching to the choir anyway. Some have said they are going to hear him because he supports Israel. Is our community so desperate for support that we must now respond to flattery from a bigot ?
Ben
Ben, No one wants to BAN Muslim immigration, just curb it because you obviously have been walking round with your eyes and ears closed if you haven’t seen what is happening around the world.
Ben argued that Islam is not an ideology and here it is straight form the horse’s mouth and it couldn’t have come at a more opportune time.
Islamic Universities Association Secretary-General: Martyrdom the “Most Lofty Form of Jihad”.
Such a succinct, passionate posting addressing Ben, Michael. It’s big strength is in the issues you so clearly and cogently compare. Oh, that the whole world would and could read it! Problem is they’d have to be willing to ‘receive’ it, as would Ben, not just read it. A bit like listening instead of just hearing.
Do you think Ben heard guys?
Do you think he is even listening?
I doubt it, he has been well indoctrinated by the loony left.
Gee Ben ,’ Wilders is a racist Huh’ funny about that I listened to every word he said on late-line the other night and other than stating the obvious that so called multiculturalism is not working in his homeland Holland or in neighboring Europe fact { Derr!!] Muslims were not repeat not integrating like other immigrants into society for so many reasons too many to list, Fact and that he was just letting us know in Australia what we should expect. I doubt if you were a religious Jew you would dare walk down the main street of Lakemba Ben and feel secure whilst if a observant Muslim walked down Hotham Street St kilda he would feel pretty safe and probably ignored .
I can sure you Ben the Muslim community don’t spend tens of millions of dollars in security like we Jews do . None of these observations Ben are racist they are just the way it is no matter how so many Jews here in Australia try to stick their heads in the sand and wish it wasn’t so.
Ben you talk about racist behavior whilst our FM was giving Geert Wilders the run around so as to please labours constituency in Lakemba and western suburbs of Sydney he was ‘ fast tracking the visa for the Kuwaiti leader of the Muslim Brotherhood Tareq Al Suwaidan who after receiving his fast track Visa sent a message of thanks to our ‘genius’ FM.
Ben ,You know who this guy .. Tareq AL Suwaidan is , he is famous for his tolerance and love of Jews he said on that ever so tolerant Muslim organizations TV Chanel Hamas Al- Quds TV on 26 March 2012
‘’ “The most dangerous thing facing the Muslims is not the dictatorships. The absolutely most dangerous thing is the Jews. They are the most dangerous. They are the greatest enemy ‘’
http://www.memri.org/report/en/print6453.htm
This is what we call racist Ben not somebody stating the bloody obvious even if it is not palatable or fit into your worldly views.
And not a peep out of the Leftist/ Progressive Jewish community leadership all shtum no calls of racism or anti- Semitsim they only open their mouths to criticize Israel or to stand by the Muslim community and cry Racist and Islamaphobia if someone were to give their view of what is the problems is in Europe and here.
So Ben you can throw around the ”R’ word or the ‘ I’ word as much as you like however until you scream just as loud when we Jews are vilified either directly or via Israel you’re cries or mantra will not be credible’ just plain boring.
BTW Ben funny how Wilders requires an army of protectors from you know who but the real racist one of a conga line of racists like Suwadain imported by the Muslim community require no such security , the most we Jews will do is write a letter to the Editor or to this blog site . This intolerance is exactly what Wilders preaches is going on and this is just one example.
Have a Nice Day, Ben.
Good to see so many come in support of Geert Wilders. Not his democratic rights to free expression, but to his thinly veiled raist rants. Interestingly, it was the US and its allies who funded, armed and promoted this vile sect of Islam in Afghanistan and Pakistan through the ISI and the US client state Saudi Arabia.
There are many other syncretic and liberal strands of Islam represented by the Sufis and similar sects. I presume it will be alright to judge Judaism and Jews by the pronouncements of Meir Kahane and Ovida Yusuf.
Really Ben you are something else
You are talking about two extreme views from a long time ago now. In fact both of whom were born very early last century
We are speaking of today, right now. Where people go on a killing spree because a cartoon or video offends, or heaven forbid we name a teddy bear Mohammed.
Have you been to parts of Sweden, Holland, France, England, Germany and more? No neither will emergency services without the riot squad. Where militant gangs won’t allow badly injured people to be tended to. Where these same people won’t allow fires to be put out. Where it is not safe for women and Gays to be seen on the street, where Sharia law overrides the laws of the land. Where the Jewish population is experiencing more and more antisemitism. French Jews are leaving in droves.
I only have to visit the area in London I come from to see what has happened there. Sharia gangs won’t allow non-Muslims to drink, where they harass non-Muslims girls for not adhering to their code of dress.
It’s happening here, there have been plenty of programmes highlighting it.
Do you have your head in a bag Ben? Because from where I sit, it sure looks like it to me.
Ah, as usual the clouding of issues by way of smear.
As I and several others have mentioned, the issue is the silencing of Wilders by an aggressive segment of society; that is the obverse side of the freedom of speech coin. But of course sneering beats reading every time.
Your claim that supporters of free speech – or if you will, the intimidation into silence – are only using that cause to support a thinly veiled racism, is a variant of the intimidation and exclusion methods of totalitarian PC enforcers. None of the pro-Wilders posters here is a racist and it is a low slur to cast us as such.
The comments by Rabbi Ovadia, originally from Morrocco, are nothing compared to the comments by Qaradawi. Or the Friday sermons of PA imams. People do get tired of hate being directed against them. But Ovadia is in the minority and none take action, such as murdering a family like the Fogels. Rabbi Kahane was a straight talking man ahead of his time and he was murdered by an Arab. All Kahane was proposing was to shift the enemies of Jews from the Jewish state. That is not extermist, after all the Kuwaitis kicked out their traitorous “Palestinian” brothers and their action was justified by the Saudis. Let’s not try to compel Jews to accept double standards.
The casting as racists any who identify racist, supremicist, religion besotted groups is in the same category as those who state that Jews identifying antisemites do so only to hide the guilt of Jews. Play that game with ignoramuses, Ben. It won’t work here,
I wonder if The idiots at JCCV are happy with themselves when they see Palestinian useful idiots affiliated with their org demonstrating outside their very offices against Jewish Israelies and the Jewish state as well as now jumping on the lefist bandwagon
attacking the Jewish community and leadership over the Zygier tradgedy .
Of course JCCV will argue in a democracy we should allow all voices even those minorry radical voices that are totally opposite to the majority mainstream In a perfect even handed world that may be ok In austrAlia with Abc/sbs/ Fairfax here ruling the media waves we sure ain’t living in a perfect world
I wonder how many pro Zionist radicals and anti Palestinian activists are affiliated with the jccv equivilent the I C V Islamic council Victoria
I wonder how many of these appear regularly on the Arabist ABC to vilify the Arab / muslim community and their leadership as well as to demoize the Palestinians
this is the bottom line and why the Israeli narrative is not getting though to the public
I gather our community funds to jccv are partly indirectky supporting the AJDS thanks JCCV
I know where my money is not going !
Don’t forget the part of ECAJ in this Michael. They shouldn’t have the JCCV as an affiliate
As far as the AJDS, the NIF are concerned they should not be given air space.
Same with this on FB “Jews Against Israeli Apartheid – Melbourne”
This has the names of the usual suspects on it. You don’t even have to look.
Let’s see why Larry Stillman is so irrelevant, why his musings receive the popular acclaim of a raving lunatic roaming shopping malls and other public spaces.
Method : extrapolating others’ statements, thus building a “case” which has an a priori “conclusion” of self-righteousness. The so called “clown technique ” whereby one dresses up in “funny” gear expecting laughter at the emission of any sound – burping, farting as favourites, not unlike our Larry !!!
Substance: peddling notions already comprehensively discredited by tangible reality. Islamists have created of late regimes of terror in both their “legitimate” geopolitical spaces, Islamic countries as such, and outside those generic Islamic states. NSW Police, for instance , has a Middle Eastern Department, dealing in the main with islamic communities. Almost all Western European countries, untill recently not concerned with the presence of disturbing Islamic elements in their midst, have made drastic adjustments to their internal and externat policies at the behest of the Islamic forces within their countries, some surprisingly turning against Israel and also against the freedom their own Jewish communities have enjoyed particularly post WWII, also in order to accommodate the islamic anti Semitic pressures.
Larry obviates the prevallence of the derailed thinking at those who embrace a crede/philosophy/ideology/rationale foreign to their generic expectations. It simply means that when a Jew turns against his own people, as Larry most definitely has been doing for quite some time, the incongruities that person emanates reek of excessively putred excremental exploits, while attracting the distrust of those who the same is courting. For, while useful idiots are an asset to their beneficiaries, they are not REALLY integrated organically into the structure of the “parties” they so ardently support publicly.
At least they can be satisfied that their own people – so to speak – develop the kind of vomiting disposition Shirlee so rightly is expressing here to which I partake without any pleasure.
And sic transit the indignity of some who wallow in the disdain they create within their own family…………
There is obviously an insult or sarcasm hidden somewhere here.
Larry if Islam was such a tolarent “”religion “” why does Wilders require any army of protectors .
The Islamic community supported by the left have a conga line of radical anti Zionist anti Jewish guest speakers invited here none of them require security .
I Quote one of the strongest advocates of the Muslim community and their Human Rights JUlian Burnside who made this statement at The Age writers festival where he supported Antony Loewenstein at his ant- Israel book Launch .. I attended.
” barrister and human rights activist Julian Burnside, QC, said: “One of the most important elements in any community . . . is the genuine possibility of freedom of thought and freedom of speech. There are no ideas that are off limits and no questions that are illegal.”
I presume Burnsides words of wisdom include defending Geert Wilders right to free speech just he he defended Loewenseins right to free speech [ insult and offend Jews and Israelis.]
I watched Geert Wilders Interview with Tony JOnes on Lateline the other night there were no signs of incitement of hatred he just stated what he was experiencing and what was happening in Holland and Europe and what we In Australia can expect.
Apart from a couple of points I am ignoring Ben, because Ben is beyond help. As the saying goes “Don’t give him oxygen”
You don’t do much for your credibility quoting from Loon Watch!! The name says it all.
Palestinians are an “invented people”. Even your Arab friends agree on that. Look it up. One well known Arab laughingly says. I went to bed an Arab and woke up the next morning, June 4th 1967, a Palestinian. It was a termed coined in Moscow in 1965 by the Russians when they formed the PLO.
Ben on “Equating Islam with Nazisms” I suggest you learn you some history. Does the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al-Husseini and the Muslim Brotherhood ring any bells?
“Haj Amin Al-Husseini (1895-1974), Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, is a man of the past, at the same time he is a man of the present. Not only was he one of the best Arab friends the Nazis ever had, he also worked for them and was handsomely paid by them in the crucial war years between 1941 and 1945 when he lived in a villa in Berlin. Today, he is a model for many radical Muslims who share his views on the Jews, Sharia law and the West. He was the father of Palestinian nationalism.”
As for Islam being an ideology, someone else has said it too, again search the issue. Some say a political ideology
Maybe Liat doesn’t know about the AJDS and the letter they complained no one would publish and the stunt they pulled at the JNF offices on Green Sunday, which was beyond digraceful
Shirlee,
I think you missed the point as to why its called loonwatch.com
Ben
Probably because there’s a Loon watching it !!
Just looked at it.Yup I was right in my assumption
Loony Left Loons
I don’t think anybody who contributes a posting to this website should be attacked personally in a vitriolic way. Stating an opinion on what people or organisations should be doing is not ‘telling them what to do”, and everybody in a democratic state is allowed an opinion.
We can abhor what people have to say, and feel passionately about their background and what they’ve chosen to do in relation to that background, however if their posting comes up for comment, then any comment should speak to the subject, not the person.
My comments should not be taken as implying support for Larry or any organisation he belongs to. My own thoughts and beliefs are completely contrary to theirs. However, anybody accepted by the Moderator for posting on this site should be able to do so without personal attack. The unleashed ugliness of attacking the person is bad for everyone, and no one person has a handle on what is right or wrong.
As for religion, of course Islam is a religion, and it’s also a political ideology that is fast becoming dangerous to all except the people who practice it. Christianity was once pretty dangerous, too. I mean it did contribute for two thousand years to what became the Holocaust in the hands of Hitler and Nazi Germany – it laid the important groundwork for that. Christianity is a religion that has also been used as ideology and has left much destruction and hate in its wake. Still is doing actually. What matters is not so much what all the religious books ‘say’, but what people do in the name of what they say.
I welcome Geert Wilders to Australia, am very impressed with what he has to say and how he says it, and admire his courage.
Liat, you are partly right. Christianity was linked to state power and in attempting to remove the evidence of its theological error – the continued exisence of Jews – it turned on us. The point to note it that the horrible things done to Jews and other victims of Christianity were done by savages who were bad Christians; they never became sufficiently civilised to live by the Jewish concepts of love. tolerance, forgiveness and respect for life. The horrible things that mohammedans do to Jews, other non-mohammedans and to each other is because they follow certain verses in the Koran that sanctions such brutality, as long as it is for the sake of Allah. And that, by the way, is a method of religious recruitment; breaking every social rule is acceptable if done for Islam.
I doubt this will get published but some truly astonishing comments are being made here which reinforce how dangerous Wilders and QSoc are.
There is a mile of difference between denigrating an entire belief system as Shirlee, Paul and Wilders do and criticising some of its adherents who distort the message of that system. Equating Islam with Nazisms (Paul) and resorting to patent insults by stating it is “not a religion” (Shirlee) crosses the line. No different to the other famous slur that Palestinians are an “invented people”. These are unfounded and highly subjective statements, made with an intent to offend and boarder on hate speech.
As part of Shirlee’s self-righteous but ultimately hollow tirade against Larry she offers up compelling evidence from “three Iranian friends” who we are expected to assume are representative of the entire world population of 1.6 billion Muslims.
Her slur about the Koran’s reference to Jews as “apes and pigs” is a misinterpretation by both Jews and Muslims alike (see quote below from this link below – http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/01/are-jews-apes-and-pigs/).
And it is distorted logic of the highest order for Peter, and I’m sure Wilders himself, to glibly claim that the threats against him are evidence of Islam’s aggression: what does he expect from some of the provocative comments he has made about their prophet being paedophile and a thief. Would and do Jews get into a similar froth over similar statements by Muslims against Jews – you bet ya ! And the fact that some Muslims make these statements about Jews is no excuse. A 6 year old can tell you that two wrongs don’t make a right, and we need to rise above this puerile name calling.
Larry Stillman is quite correct to warn our community against blindly courting hate mongerers like Wilders and QSoc, although in the case of Shirlee and Paul and a good many others, I am sure it is too late.
Ben
EXCERPT FROM http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/01/are-jews-apes-and-pigs/
The verses in question reference a specific story in which a community of Jews who lived by the sea — which according to several early Islamic exegeses is the town of Eilat — had people who fished on the Sabbath and deliberately broke the law, for according to Jewish law, all work was forbidden on the Sabbath. In punishment for this breach of the law, God transformed the Sabbath-breakers into apes; only 5:60 speaks of God transforming some of the sabbath breaking Jews into swine.
Yet, note that the verses in question do not say, “All Jews are apes and pigs.” They do not say, “All Jews are descended from apes and pigs.” They do not say “All Jews are either apes or pigs.” Do some Muslims say so? Absolutely. Do they cite the above verses as “evidence” for their claims? Absolutely. Does that mean that the verses in question say so? Absolutely not.
Ben, your attempt at “dawa”, Islamic propaganda, fails. It does not matter what the hadith states or its origin. The simple fact is that imams and other leaders regularly refer to Jews as the sons of pigs and apes in their message of incitement to their people. Instead pf loonwhatch, read some ot the translations of what is said in Arabic by MEMRI and PMW.
Name calling is not going to silence people like Shirlee and myself. We are not cranks or bigots or racists or even alarmist ignoramuses. Ther racist smear is a hallmark of the left; label someone as such, and she of he can then be ignored or excluded and thus silenced.
Islam is, as Wilders point out, and as I pointed out below, one of the last major totalitarian ideologies that must be crushed if Western civilsation is to survive. We crushed Naziism and Communism and the need to crush islamofascism is being held up by PC enforcers who want to fool us into thinking that Islam is just a religion, like say Judaism. Jews who think that need to brush up on what their religion really is.
If Islam were not a violent and aggressive system, people like Wilders could walk down the streets of Rotterdam and have chats with the friendly local Muslims. Just as a Christian in Jerusalem can have friendly chats with the locals there. I’m still waiting for one of Wilder’s critics — just one — to quote the ‘hate” that he’s continually accused of saying. If he says the Islamic punishment for apostasy is death, is that ‘hate’ or is it the truth? If he says that Shariah law regards women as worth only half of the worth of a man, is that ‘hate’ or the truth? If he says that Muslims regard non-Muslims as ‘kuffr’ = vile and filthy — is that ‘hate’ or the truth?
Let me understand something. Radical members of the [JCCV affiliated] Palestinian Human rights group Australian Jewish Democratic Society AJDS including Larry Stillman I believe ? { its editor Sol Salbe says he has been fighting for Palestinian Human rights for over 35 years.. onya Sol wonder how many Religion of Peace guys have been fighting for Jewish HUman Rights but thats another story.. ]
demonstrate outside the head office of JNF handing out anti- Israel anti- JNF propaganda and the very same members have the Chutzpah to condemn Geert Wilders who has been to israel more times probably than all the ratbag 20 members of AJDS all together Wilders comes here as a passionate Israel and Zionist supporter and continually uses the term Judao/ Christian society . In fact his own life has been threatened not only because of the peace loving Muslim threats to silence him but because he is labelled a Zionist in Holland .
Any Jewish community members should hold their heads in shame if they have more respect for their own kind that are totally obsessed with demonizing Israel and the local Jewish community leadership like the ratbag members of AJDS over some one like Wilders who has the balls to stand up for Jews in Israel.
Burdy
Larry Stillman,
What unmitigated gall you have after your performance two weeks ago at the JNF offices. You should be ashamed of yourself. I could say more, but I doubt it would be published. I don’t know how you have the nerve to show your face around here. I certainly wouldn’t be giving you oxygen. You are in no position to be criticising or giving advice to anyone. Come down off your high horse Larry
What a shame I couldn’t get a function together quickly enough in Melbourne for Regavim. Ari Briggs said he’d be happy to debate you.
You and your ilk make me sick to the pit of my stomach and I prefer to the people who run the Q Society any time. Most of the Executive I have known since before the formation of the group, they are very pro-Jewish and very Zionistically minded. More than many Jews I can think of ! I am furious. How dare you pass judgment on people you don’t know? Who do you think you are? This coming from you whose group hosts the Israel hater Samah Sabawi. And a group which links to a vile loony left blog. Even the name of which is vile.Your denigration of people you do not know and your assumption they are ‘bad’ is beyond disgusting. If it were me you were speaking of, I certainly would be taking legal advice on your words
How dare you have the nerve to tell Julie and/or the EAJ what to do?
Yes we are well aware thank you of the ‘crackpots’ out there. I know the people to which Julie refers. I send her links etc., and like her monitor these groups. I have been on the receiving end of these dreadful antisemitic slurs many a time and have been for many years. I don’t regard what I read on your web site and FB page as much better. The groups in question are just what I refer to as loony lefties and the antisemitism is coming from Muslims , the anti-Israel rubbish from non-Muslims.
Islam is not a religion. It is a political ideology. Read the Koran, read the Hadith, read the Reliance of the Traveller and then tell me it isn’t. Religion is about peace and love and those books will tell you otherwise. I have three Iranian friends who will tell you about it in all its glory. A comment just picked up posted on pro-Israel group I am supporting has this morning posted on a topic about Wilders. “ He is correct and is why I ran away from malaysia “
I don’t hold it against the people, I daresay most have no idea what is in these books, the same as most Jews and Christians don’t know what is in their Bibles. Nowhere in our holy books does it tell us not to take non-believers as friends, nowhere does it tell us to slay them etc. Nowhere does it talk about people as being ‘apes and pigs’
The almost throw-away line at the beginning of this article says it all: “The sponsors of his tour, the Q Society, have reportedly found it difficult to secure venues because venue owners are fearful of violent protests or worse”.
Islam has already begun to impose its violent ideology on and change the face of Australia – in this case, self imposed limits on freedom of speech. Australians have been taught to capitulate to muslim threats of violence. That is all that Wilders is warning us about.
Julie,
you really need to try harder. You may know that I regard the ultra-leftist sects as cause junkies, and I have little patience with their games and bizarre sectarianism. One thread on face book is currently at war with its self over who more anti-Zionist while at the same time, denouncing each other for being anti-Semitic. At a certain point, you have to just give up an let them continue to write on the toilet door.
And this points to something you have missed. There are all sorts of crackpots everywhere. Many of them post on any number of pages on Facebook all the time, even if removed. It appears that many people reluctant to ban other people and/or they turn up again under another alias. It has happened to me.
Rather than picking on the nuts on the left/right intersection on Facebook , I’d think that the ECAJ would be far more interest in exposing the links that Wilders has with all sorts of people who in another time, would have been virulently anti-Semitic. The QSoc and its friendswhen I quoted from one rabbi who saw this group for what it was – haters of Muslims and lovers of military might. It has nothing to do with any particular love for Jews.
I quote here Rabbi Ralph Genende is response to an editorial made by the owner of the Jewish News, but much the same applies to supporters of the QSociety and Wilders;
“Migrants, asylum seekers, and refugees are a hot-button issue not only in Australia but across the world. And Israel today faces its own complex set of challenges with African asylum seekers and Filipino migrant workers.
The debate in Australia is clouded by myths, fear, xenophobia, and politics. It is hard to know what is fact and what is fiction. The reaction of the Jewish community is reflective of the confusion of the general public. We have many champions for refugees but we also have many claiming that illegal immigration is criminal and dangerous, that it will disrupt our society, undermine it economically, and threaten stability. As Jews, we are particularly fearful of Muslim immigrants and their potential for extremism.
These are not light fears but like many fears they are in large part unfounded. Asylum seekers are not “illegal queue jumpers who can afford to pay criminals to deceive Australian authorities.” They are neither illegal (there is no Australian law criminalising arrival without visa), nor are they migrants who leave by choice. The vast majority are desperate people forced to leave their countries (and unable to return) because they fear persecution and even death.”
And what did the (then) Immigration Minister Chris Bowen say of Wilders’ permission to visit last year:
“”I have decided not to intervene to deny him a visa because I believe that our democracy is strong enough, our multiculturalism robust enough and our commitment to freedom of speech entrenched enough that our society can withstand the visit of a fringe commentator from the other side of the world””
And what did the ADL have to say in the US?
“ADL Condemns Anti-Islam Remarks Made by Dutch Parliamentarian During Appearances in S. Florida
Boca Raton, FL, April 28, 2009 …The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) strongly condemns remarks made over the last few days at various appearances throughout South Florida by Dutch Parliamentarian Geert Wilders.
In his speeches, he claimed that “Islam is not a religion” and “the right to religious freedom should not apply to this totalitarian ideology called Islam.” Mr. Wilders also stated that the Koran is a book of hatred, and that Mohammed was both “a pedophile and a warlord.”
Andrew Rosenkranz, ADL Florida Regional Director, issued the following statement:
The ADL strongly condemns Geert Wilders’ message of hate against Islam as inflammatory, divisive and antithetical to American democratic ideals.
This rhetoric is dangerous and incendiary, and wrongly focuses on Islam as a religion, as opposed to the very real threat of extremist, radical Islamists.”
This is the direction that the ECAJ should be moving in, rather than concentrating than the facebook graffiti artists. .
Larry, I am rather amused that, as a member of AJDS, you miss the irony in starting your article by mentioning ” ultra-leftist sects as cause junkies”. And it is true, much of what you write may as well be on the “toilet door”, so flushed are you with the high regard you have of your own sagacity. But sadly, we do need to keep in mind Jewish antisemites. They take many forms, but the one that concerns me most are those who ally themselves with Israel bashers who base their Jew hatred on lies.
You state that the ECAJ should concentrate on links Wilders has to erstwhile antisemites. Sadly, you fail be give us the benefits of your erudition, by naming names of giving links. Until you do, I’ll dismiss your claim as baseless denigration. The Q Society, as far as I can see are neither Muslim haters or militarists. From what Wilders said on Lateline, I can safely say that he does not hate Muslims, but is opposed to that espression of their faith that contravenes Western values of tolerance and abiding by the rules and laws of the majority in the countries which took them in.
You are right in saying that the issue is clouded. The problem is that you cloud it a bit more. If you could focus on the topic, you would realise that we are talking about mohammedan supremicism and the tendency of that religious group to make demands for special privileges in host societies when their numbers reach a critical mass. As Danny Lamm wrote in another place, you lot in Vic. are already changing social rules to cater for the demands of mohammedans. Absolute insanity!
The migrant issue is peripheral to all this, but since you raised it let me clarify a few points for you. When you reach a place of first asylum, you register with the UNHCR and wait your turn for resettlement. When you use documents to fly to a country and then pay a smuggler to bring you to Oz and when you destroy your documents, you are doing a number of illegal things. But more importantly, you are pushing ahead of UNHCR registrants. People like that I don’t want here. I don’t want people who might not have got past Immigration, people who place an unfair strain on our finances, people who riot and men who need to be separate from women and children who are harmed by them.
Finally, the comment by some US ADL PC enforcer cuts no ice with me. The Koran is a book of hate and violence. Don’t stand up for a book that you most obviously have not read. It is full of hate, sadistic punishments, violence and fully 1/6th of it is devoted to war. And yes, the founder of that totolitarian ideology dressed up as a religion, was a paedophile and a war lord. He was also a liar, a thief, an enslaver and a murderer. He was unforgiving and vengeful. He was illiterate and the most telling story about him is that one of his scribes left Islam (and on order of Muhammed, was murdered) after one of his dreams from the archangel Gibril (Gabriel) was not clear and so the dreamer accepted th scribe’s suggestion to improve the uncreated word of Allah. And you think that you can change my mind about Islam? Dream on mate.
A good analysis and a high minded statement of openness, tolerance and condemnation of racism.
Where it fails is in neglecting to point out that while almost all of the comments quoted are malicious fabrications in the classical antisemitic mode, many comments about mohammedans are factually based. As Wilders points out, while only a segment of mohammedans are violent supremicists, those that are, are simply following passages of the Koran. Wilders correctly identifies Islam as an aggressive, totalitarian creed. The fact that Wilders needs protection 24/7 proves his assertion; elements within Islam use violence to eliminate opposition – not always non-mohammedans – and as a means of protesting perceived (or fabricated) slights to their faith. It needs to be pointed out that there are always good people in evil systems, like naziism, communism or islamofascism. Thus naziism has no redeeming feature, despite the humanitarianism and courage of the nazi, Oscar Schindler. And except for some Jewish concepts in the Koran, neither has Islam.